Bloodline Champions
Bloodline Champions

Fix thorn....

Bloodline discussions concerning the tank archetype.

Re: Fix thorn....

Postby Livity » 23 Jan 2012 19:36

Zcuron wrote:@Livity, what exactly is extravagant about your rhetoric? Looks like English to me...

In any case, as Livity has correctly pointed out, my suggestion doesn't actually change thorn.
This is because -- annoying as thorn may be -- I think he's in a fairly good state as-is.

My concern is that the "damage problem" originates from stats & medallions.
Meteor provides "burst". (thankfully being addressed by SLS in next patch)
Stats just increase everything. (no-one wants vitality = more damage, less hp to take it)

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Lastly, I've always held contempt and disdain for the "you can't achieve perfect balance" <argument>.
What exactly are you saying when you watch a painter paint and say "you'll never paint a perfect painting"?
It seems axiomatic, redundant and frankly, just like white noise to me.

The only thing you could be trying to say with it is "stop trying, you'll never get perfect balance".

To which, my response is:
People hostile to the idea of a balanced game should go play something else and stop polluting the arguments & debates over how to improve the balance of this game with their clearly damaged or otherwise flawed "intellects".

I'm fairly sure no-one here is arguing for the discontinuation of SLS's patching process, I just want to point out the flawed reasoning, and otherwise superfluous nature of the statement "perfect balance is not attainable".

Apologies for the length of that, it's just that I see the concept floating around so much, and it annoys me.


We talk about balance not about your paintings ^^
Perfection is a persons point of view, you can tell someone his painting is not perfect because it lacks ... But the painter thinks it's perfect as it is.

Lets make thorns m2 do dmg only if thorn has hit his target twice or so. :) Random suggestion.
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Re: Fix thorn....

Postby Zcuron » 23 Jan 2012 23:39

That suggestion gimps thorn, try again.

The analogy was made to illustrate the foolishness of a party pointing out that "perfect balance cannot be achieved" upon discovering a debate on how to best improve the balance of the game.

The statement adds nothing, and as it is a statement readily applicable to most games of this kind in existence, it can safely be considered axiomatic and therefore superfluous, or not in need of reiteration.

The only thing it can be used to mean is "perfection is not possible, therefore we shouldn't try to approximate", which does not belong in a balance discussion.

Last mention of this in the thread, feel free to PM me if you wish to have a reply beyond this. (you=anyone)
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Re: Fix thorn....

Postby 01011010 » 24 Jan 2012 15:16

How about a movement speed reduc while M2ing, but still being able to move?
Perhaps 10-20% or so?
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Re: Fix thorn....

Postby mulkmulkmulk » 25 Jan 2012 17:08

01011010 wrote:How about a movement speed reduc while M2ing, but still being able to move?
Perhaps 10-20% or so?

but but but i thought the dmg was the issue :D
COME OOON ALREADY :lol:
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Re: Fix thorn....

Postby 01011010 » 25 Jan 2012 17:27

mulkmulkmulk wrote:
01011010 wrote:How about a movement speed reduc while M2ing, but still being able to move?
Perhaps 10-20% or so?

but but but i thought the dmg was the issue :D
COME OOON ALREADY :lol:

All of it together is the issue.
If you reduce his movespeed he can't chase with massive damage/weaken
Well, he can, but not as effectively.
And it makes it harder to use seeing as you're gunna be slower.
Now stop trolling you *peeeeep* :p <3
I give life in compassion for the cessation of pain to the greatest extent I can.
I constantly confuse peoples backside with their face. They're both basically just holes that spew shit.
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Re: Fix thorn....

Postby cuBism » 06 Feb 2012 18:05

thorn is perfectly fine. he is great in public matches with a decent player, but top tier he isn't overpowering. Why? Because he got his nerfs and people can dodge the combos, simple.
Thorn for life. Thorn Beta, Lady Thorn Post-Beta. Suck Shrooms!
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Re: Fix thorn....

Postby 01011010 » 06 Feb 2012 19:47

cuBism wrote:thorn is perfectly fine. he is great in public matches with a decent player, but top tier he isn't overpowering. Why? Because he got his nerfs and people can dodge the combos, simple.

That was so closeminded I can't even. :|
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Re: Fix thorn....

Postby Rambi » 08 Feb 2012 08:35

mulkmulkmulk wrote:
01011010 wrote:How about a movement speed reduc while M2ing, but still being able to move?
Perhaps 10-20% or so?

but but but i thought the dmg was the issue :D
COME OOON ALREADY :lol:

no thorn mudwalk is op and hes ult to, not dmg the slow and the root damn, btw he is shield is to op too i hit it and get root this to stronk.
Now for real, i think he is kinda weak after the medalion/traits patch how ever,the teleport medalion nerf, maybe help a little bit ... but still i have the feeling that he is not as good as before, and yet people cry that he is op lol :lol:
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Re: Fix thorn....

Postby Amazon » 08 Feb 2012 11:08

Thorn is really strong, it's just that gunner, igniter, harb, pomp, .. counters him and those are quite popular bloodlines. I think thorn / reaver or thorn / ravener are the best comps to deal with those and thorn / any ranged works really well too.
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Re: Fix thorn....

Postby GOthee » 11 Feb 2012 03:14

01011010 wrote:
mulkmulkmulk wrote:
01011010 wrote:How about a movement speed reduc while M2ing, but still being able to move?
Perhaps 10-20% or so?

but but but i thought the dmg was the issue :D
COME OOON ALREADY :lol:

All of it together is the issue.
If you reduce his movespeed he can't chase with massive damage/weaken
Well, he can, but not as effectively.
And it makes it harder to use seeing as you're gunna be slower.
Now stop trolling you *peeeeep* :p <3



Yeap OP is just saying how op Thorn is when since last year he has been recieving serious nerfs, to his m1 heal, his q range and his other abilities also. Stop complaining about him, and if you already know how is his combo well then learn to make him pay for wasting all his abilities, or jsut dodge his skills, or get medallions that help. Thats it! l2p! *peep!
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Re: Fix thorn....

Postby rissoxx » 11 Feb 2012 11:21

Thorn isnt OP. I dont even have to say anything else since everyone with a brain here have already said why he isnt OP -.-
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Re: Fix thorn....

Postby loSu » 13 Feb 2012 23:21

01011010 wrote:
cuBism wrote:thorn is perfectly fine. he is great in public matches with a decent player, but top tier he isn't overpowering. Why? Because he got his nerfs and people can dodge the combos, simple.

That was so closeminded I can't even. :|


Your hypocrisy is really startin to bug me. Thorn is strong, not op. Don't see the problem
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Re: Fix thorn....

Postby Zcuron » 14 Feb 2012 01:06

loSu wrote:
01011010 wrote:
Spoiler: show
cuBism wrote:thorn is perfectly fine. he is great in public matches with a decent player, but top tier he isn't overpowering. Why? Because he got his nerfs and people can dodge the combos, simple.

That was so closeminded I can't even. :|


Your hypocrisy is really startin to bug me. Thorn is strong, not op. Don't see the problem


Thorn is indeed in a fairly good state, though I'd like to see a few slight changes. (nothing too dramatic)
Spoiler: show
Slight nerfs:
1. -20 E velocity. (currently 260)
2. -(1-2) Space AoE. (currently 10)

Slight buffs:
1. +1 Regrowth stack. (currently 2)
2. M2 now heals for 30 per Regrowth stack. (currently "70 if regrowth is active")
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Re: Fix thorn....

Postby loSu » 14 Feb 2012 07:26

I thought the e was already nerfed velocity-wise? I could be wrong; too lazy to check. Anyway I would be inclined to see how those buffs play out
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Re: Fix thorn....

Postby Porrfilm » 17 Feb 2012 11:37

spokes wrote:Any spacebar usage during thorns pull would free you from his pull, even nomads space bar would free nomad from the pull. So the pull is avoidable.


for the record here, gluttons space has a cast time so he cant actually get out of that combo, if E were to hit glutton CANT get out or do ANYTHING to counter it until he has come to a full stop and this is true for all bloodlines without instant cast getaways :)
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